Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

[Morris McKinnon]

You'll find the problem, five minutes of tinkering every other day will find it but yes, family comes first. Wish I could give you a hand, sounds an interesting one for sure!

[mickthefitter]

I think my assessment of the brakes may have been hasty just over a week ago when I was yomping batteries about and the starter failed. Which is a a speck of good news at least. I think what's thrown me is the servo is completely out of vacuum, so the pedal's gone harder. I've just been in the garage, moments before the daylight completely goes again, and pumped the brakes hard and the pedal does seem to have more or less full movement, with a sort of two-stage feel to the travel, which I assume is to do with the front discs and rear drums. And the car still rolls afterwards. So I think my feeling that a caliper had seized too, was part of my being in a blue funk after I'd gone out to warm the car up, reverse it into the garage and then the starter (for whatever reason) failed.

I'd love to be able to work on the car every other day! But I go to work in the dark, come home in the dark, and currently frequently go to my dads in the evening for a couple of hours. And I've no lights, power and not much room where the car is. I've just got weather protection really, which is better than leaving a classic car outdoors, but a workshop it ain't.

[Morris McKinnon]

I get that problem with TDT regarding the brakes too. I thought too the servo was playing up but turns out it the piston seals in the calipers.
They bond to the pistons if not used regularly and like you said, a good few hard stomps on the pedal usually frees them.

[mickthefitter]

I haven't got anything to add on the progress of the running condition of my Marina HL auto, but last weekend I went through the muddled history folder and arranged the paperwork in a logical, readable way. So now it is possible to interpret the history of this car (which JubileeNut described as a 'dog of a car' after my moaning about it's progressive decline into a static ornament, after nothing I did to it in the summer, except for a rebuilt radiator, helped it go any better).



I thought some might find its history of interest. Last April I travelled at short notice to Thorton Le-Dale in North Yorkshire (120 miles) after seeing the 27,000 mile Marina in a Mathewsons' auction ad. Quoted from the catalogue - "Only around 4 or 5 vehicles each sale arrive with such an impressive history folder. Within the vast folders are previous tax discs, previous MoTs, invoices, workshop manuals, original 'Passport To Service' booklet, original 'Radiomobile' operating instructions, the original Morris Marina driver handbook and THE ORIGINAL BILL OF SALE."

Yeah I got the car. I think that can be figured. There was quite a battle for it. On the day, I came home with the history folder and left the car in Yorkshire. On opening the folder (that I'd not seen pre-sale) I saw it was sold new by Millhouse of West Hallam, Derbys., to a Mr. Bomar Law of Lower Stanton Road, Ilkeston, Derbyshire...my neck of the woods! What were the chances? The invoice price was £2673.77

I knew pretty early on from looking at the original documents that there were some omissions in the history, even though I can trace the car back from new. But putting the documents into a proper order tells all the story that's there. First registered on April 1st 1976 (so who's the fool for buying it now?) the first mystery is that Millhouse of West Hallam carried out the pre delivery inspection - and then there are no other entries in the Passport To Service book. Not even the 'free' 1000 mile lubrication service. Every other page is blank and pristine. What I'd like to know is, who serviced the car? Did Bomar Law do it himself? Did he have a trusted mechanic? Or did Millhouse do it, but being a British Leyland dealer, forget to stamp the service book? A neighbour told me they used to be high class, usually dealing in Rovers. They were still trading as used car dealers until the middle of 2016, but unfortunately have now closed.

The car moved to its second owners in Long Eaton in 1985 with 7147 miles on the clock. I know this from a photocopied A4 sheet in the folder, of rather untidy pencil scrawl, evidently done by the last owner before me, detailing dates and mileages. I think he got some of this information from the guy he bought it off. Mr. Rowley (the last owner) didn't have particularly neat handwriting and the sheet contains some crossing out, asterisks and the odd arrow diverting attention to another part of the page. The Haynes manual came full of sheets and scraps of paper like this, with technical details scribbled down, things that had been done, or might have been done, and with question marks next to them...after a while I threw them away, as they were no help to me at all. But back to 1985, and Mr. Law hand wrote a receipt for the new owner in Long Eaton and verified the low mileage was genuine. £1200 was paid.

Then there is the first evidence of spending on the car. Receipts for parts only identified by numbers in September 1985, and a new battery in 1987, all from Hydrose Motor Factors in Long Eaton. Then another battery in 1990, same place. The MoT trail only picks up in 1986, but there are a lot of tax discs, but not all of them. The earliest one is the second issued (if the car was taxed annually) issued in 1977 and expiring in '78. The next one was issued in '79, '80, then 1983. The '84-'85 one is there, but then there's a gap to '87-'88, but confusingly two stray ones are in the collection for a 'Leyland Cars' vehicle registered Q 51 ATV, expiring early '88 and '89. The Marina has tax discs for 1989, 1990, but then there's a massive gap to 1998 and 1999. Then another gap to 2012. The scribbled notes suggest the car was stored between 2000 and 2012, with just under 24,000 miles on the clock. The second owners must have been Morris fans, as there's mistakenly also a saved insurance document in the folder not for my car, issued by Routen Chaplin & Partners, Long Eaton, for a Morris Ital registered TNU 69X, valued at £1900, and in the name of the Marina owner's wife, aged 60 years. The renewal date for that was 8th June 1988.

From Long Eaton the Marina moved to Urmaston, Manchester in 2000, evidence being the green log book slip. The same kind of evidence puts the car in Spennymoor, Durham in 2012, and then Cadwell in North Yorkshire in May 2013. By that time the car had covered 25,068 miles. Of course by this time the paper trail of invoices for work has picked up considerably, particularly for brakes, but also since 2013 two garages, one in Co. Durham and one in Yorkshire, have worked on the automatic gearbox, starter and cooling system - and I've still got issues with all of those, and more besides. There are entry slips for several classic car shows in the summer months of 2015 - and since the car started trying to overheat once I started using it, and won't run right (before the starter failed a few weeks back) I am starting to suspect the last owner may have damaged the engine. The car had a rather low budget respray in 2012, performed or paid for by owner number 4, but seems in the hands of previous owner number five to have picked up numerous car park dents, aerosol marks, and it came to me with a liberal dosing of road salt on its lower surfaces. While solid, some paint is now missing from the very lower edges of the sills and wing bottoms, where the thin respray has flaked off, and the valances have some brush painting on them. One rear wheel arch has a bit of a bulge on the return lip where corrosion between the two skins has caused it to swell. I realise this is nothing compared to what some Marina owners face, but I am left with the feeling that owner number 5 has let the car go a bit, and now I've got to pick up the pieces, whereas I thought I was bidding on a usable, well cared for car. The fact that it is still here and appears not to have been welded (new front wings were fitted with screws and bolts in 1996 by the second owner) is good. But I am feeling a bit sore about the work that has been carried out in the last two or three years that seems to have not been done at all well, the bodges to the starter circuit, the blocked radiator supplemented by a now removed Kenlowe fan, and sealed with Radweld, the leaking Borg Warner transmission....and oh yes, the Sundym windscreen is pretty badly scratched too, something I didn't notice when the car was indoors at the auction house. It looks like someone used something like a dustpan to scrape ice of it in winter. Yeah. Unfortunately I'm not flushed with admiration at the care the car received in the last few years.

I have decided, although the spanners haven't come out yet, that while the car sleeps through the rest of winter, the carburettors can come off and be sent away to the chap who's name and business were mentioned in one of the recent past issues of Understeer. I've already emailed and spoken to him on the phone. Then at least when I can face trying to get it turning over and running again, I will have a datum point to start from. Because at the moment I've got no idea what else, if anything, has been unprofessionally messed with as well.

[mickthefitter]

Working on it again. Carbs off, to be sent away.





Not the best of working conditions. Under cover, but dark and cramped.







The steering column shroud managed to fall apart while I was removing it to take out the old knackered choke cable. It appears it had been super glued together before. Dried runs of something that was once liquid on the inside. I thought the plastic was just disintegrating at first.

[Kilroy]

Hey there mickthefitter.

I am suddenly reminded of something that came my way in the early days of my experience with Marina autos.
I formed a friendship with a chap who was an old school automatic transmission specialist.
He was only old school because he had been in the game a long time and thus got most of the "classic" autos to service.
He told me that the setting of the kickdown cable was extremely important on our BW 65 autos.
The position of this cable basically informs the auto how to perform, and has a direct bearing on the fluid pressures by which the thing judges what to do and when to do it.
My very first ever Marina was a 1978 HL with exactly the same setup as yours.
I used to find that it really "bogged down" when under acceleration - especially up hills.
It seemed to me that the engine was in a reasonable state and had quite a few horsepower available, but it simply would not manage being under load at all well.
I found that by operating the auto manually I was able to obtain much higher revs and things began moving with much more urgency.
To over-simplify the procedure, the kickdown cable should be adjusted so that you can force a downchange when the accelerator pedal is almost completely at full travel.
I have found some examples where the cable was so tight that only 3/4 throttle was even possible before the full travel of the cable prevented any further movement of the carb linkage.
It may be worthwhile checking this before embarking on every other tuning avenue...

[Martec]

Hi Mike,

I have watched your posts with surprise and to some extent dispair.

I am begining to realise that few people understand distributors, carburettors and 40 year old cars that everyone else has had their fingers in.

I watched as experienced people tried to explain how to set the engine up (very well I thought) plugs, points, tappets, timing and carburrettors. A system my dad taught me (he was a good motor mechanic) and have always set my engines to with ease.

Just a few points:-

You set the distributor timing to the timing marks on the front pulley and cover marks........are these original, take a plug out and turn the engine back and forth to find an approximation of TDC, then set the timing to suit that.

Quite by chance I found that adjusting tappet gaps this adjusted the compression pressures, so the difference in pressure may just be inaccurate tappet gaps!

I have no knowledge of Autos and have no wish to, so why not take it out of the equation buy raising the back axle onto axle stands then temporarily bypass the ignition switch and any others to be able to simply start and run the engine. I've done this a few times on scrap engines or engines I'm building. Then you have a known running engine and can work back through the ignition switch problem and the gearbox as Kilroy has detailed.

One thing at a time rather than pick spurious items to fiddle with!

This is not a 2 A4 page post and is given as a help not condemnation.

Best wishes.

Brian

PS Ben I can't find anything wrong with your website and if it is simpler for you to manage then its a win situation.

[lock1506]

I'm sure I have a spare brown steering column surround if you want a replacement instead of sticking it back together.

[mickthefitter]

Hey there mickthefitter.

I am suddenly reminded of something that came my way in the early days of my experience with Marina autos.
I formed a friendship with a chap who was an old school automatic transmission specialist.
He was only old school because he had been in the game a long time and thus got most of the "classic" autos to service.
He told me that the setting of the kickdown cable was extremely important on our BW 65 autos.
The position of this cable basically informs the auto how to perform, and has a direct bearing on the fluid pressures by which the thing judges what to do and when to do it.
My very first ever Marina was a 1978 HL with exactly the same setup as yours.
I used to find that it really "bogged down" when under acceleration - especially up hills.
It seemed to me that the engine was in a reasonable state and had quite a few horsepower available, but it simply would not manage being under load at all well.
I found that by operating the auto manually I was able to obtain much higher revs and things began moving with much more urgency.
To over-simplify the procedure, the kickdown cable should be adjusted so that you can force a downchange when the accelerator pedal is almost completely at full travel.
I have found some examples where the cable was so tight that only 3/4 throttle was even possible before the full travel of the cable prevented any further movement of the carb linkage.
It may be worthwhile checking this before embarking on every other tuning avenue...

Hello Kilroy, nice to hear from you again.

Your description of the operation of the kickdown cable reminds me of my experiences with my first Morris Marina, the white 1975 single carb 1.8 auto that I bought from a used car dealer in 1981 (it was my sixth or seventh car, and I had passed my driving test only in 1980!). That first Marina auto, which was for many years my favourite car of all time (usurped in 1998 by a 75bhp Fiat Punto SX, then a Mercedes and now a Volvo) was the inspiration behind my buying this obstinate beastie, the HL auto, when I was looking for something to replace the classic Mini based Wolseley Hornet I'd owned for five years.

When I got my Glacier White Marina in '81, there were a couple of running issues - despite the '42 point pre-sale inspection'. The first I wasn't sure about because I'd never owned an automatic before - though I'd ridden in other people's. The car held onto the revs for a long time before each gear shift, giving a jerky ride, and didn't change into top until you were doing 37mph. The other issue was that I bought it in the autumn, and as we went into winter the car was always stalling when cold, and seemed lumpy. Not far from town, there was one of those 'old school' auto transmission specialists you described - the nearest one to me in fact, so the obvious choice when it came to giving the car someone to look at. His forecourt used to be full of dead automatic cars in various states of dismantling, some of which looked like they'd not moved for years. The dealer I bought the car off had been given it back to look at, but I'd got the usual fob-off and double speak car dealers and their mechanics specialise in once you've paid for a car, and I was 19 and not overly confident when dealing with 'grown-ups' under those circumstances. So the auto transmission bloke got my car, basically to deal with the 37mph upshift. I got a phone call - did I know my engine had a valve stuck open and was basically running on three cylinders? Well, that explained the lumpy running and stalling! I gave him the go-ahead to take the head off and fix the valve. He also serviced the transmission and changed the fluid. After he'd had the car, it naturally ran better and had loads more power - but the gear change intervals were the same. The answer I got, as far as I can remember, was that my transmission was healthy and worn autos slur the gears and slip, so there was nothing to worry about. Well, despite that reassurance, I still wasn't totally happy with the way my Marina changed gear and it was a far cry from the 'limousine' type ride I had hoped for (yeah right - from a Marina!). I could get it to go into top gear at 30mph if I took my foot off the accelerator, so I tended to drive it as if it was a semi-automatic, in that where possible I forced an upshift at 30mph by lifting off the throttle and then going back on it again. The kickdown function worked fine.

I put up with this for six months. Then one day when fiddling around under the bonnet, I saw how the kickdown cable was connected to the carburettor, via a sort of forked lever that worked with the throttle, pulling on the barrel nipple that was on the end of the kickdown cable. But....under the barrel nipple, in fact under the forked lever, was what looked like some kind of brass ferrule on the inner Bowden cable, that was somehow 'threaded' into the strands of the cable, and which could be wound up and down if I turned it, and as found, when the kickdown cable was relaxed, it was preventing the inner cable returning fully home, as the ferrule reached the top of the outer cable. The next thing I did was a bit extreme, but I wound the ferrule as high as it would go, unhooked the barrel nipple from the lever, and drove the car! It slurred into second gear at 10mph, and third at 20mph. It was as smooth as silk, but clearly couldn't be left like that as it still changed gear at the same speeds going up a steep hill, which I did deliberately to test it, but then changed down manually so as not to break the car. Back home, I reconnected the cable and then kept adjusting the outer cable with the adjuster and driving the car, until I got upshifts into top, on the flat with a light throttle, at 25mph, and gears were held for longer up hills and at higher throttle openings. I knew nothing about pressure readings! I used the car like that quite happily for the next three years, until the body started to go. The only downside was...yep, at full throttle in top gear kickdown never worked, but I wasn't bothered and just manually shifted to 2nd gear for overtaking. And the only other thing was - roughly every six months that brass ferrule would wind itself down the inner cable and stop the cable going fully back to its 'rest' position, so my shift speeds would begin to rise. I used to just open the bonnet, wind the ferrule to the top and off I'd go again.

I realise this wasn't very scientific, but I had that car between the ages of 19 and 23, and it was always reliable save for a dodgy coil and a tendency to fill up with rain water, which I at least cured in the interior (but not the boot) by going around the screen seals with black Bostik, after first masking off the paint.

Unfortunately I am convinced there is something wrong with my current Marina HL's engine. It's a low mileage survivor all right, but all the evidence points to ham fisted repairs and neglect in recent times, so I think this car has come to me ready for a big spend. I mean, a prime example of this is the radiator....clogged, falling apart and sealed with Radweld...with a Kenlowe fan sitting in front. The car ran hot if pushed over 40mph and before I got it, it had been to several summer shows in 2015, judging by the entry passes in the history folder. So the engine might be cooked. A near-£200 recoring job and (before the car packed up) I then had a heck of a job getting the temperature gauge to get past 1/4, idling on the drive at the end of summer, when I wanted to do my tuning jobs, the radiator is that good. It needed a record rad. Not bodging up. So that is why the carbs are going away for a rebuild. There are signs that they've been off in the past, and out of the thrown away notes in scribbled writing, that came in the workshop manual, there was something about carb needle sizes with a question mark next to it. Have they been messed with? I don't know. But I figure the only way to find out is let someone have them who knows what they are doing, and cough up the cash. And then move onto the next bit. And then the next. Otherwise this car is just going to sit in its concrete lock-up deteriorating more, as an unloved 'mistake' that I wish had never happened.

Below is a sketch of what I remember the kickdown cable and ferrule looking like on my single carb Mk1 auto - but bear in mind, I am remembering back about 35 years!

[mickthefitter]

Hi Mike,

I have watched your posts with surprise and to some extent dispair.

I am begining to realise that few people understand distributors, carburettors and 40 year old cars that everyone else has had their fingers in.

I watched as experienced people tried to explain how to set the engine up (very well I thought) plugs, points, tappets, timing and carburrettors. A system my dad taught me (he was a good motor mechanic) and have always set my engines to with ease.

You share the same despair I feel, Brian!

I'm not a motor mechanic, as I've said in previous posts, nor an electrician or a restorer. But I have a technical grounding as I was an apprentice, went to college, and until until 2011 (and from 1978) I was doing maintenance, fabrication and repair work in factories, then after a stint as a lorry driver, I've gone back into maintenance in a care home. I always used to do DIY tuning and servicing work on my old 'basic' cars, before computers came along, and until the current diesel Volvo I own, still did a lot of servicing and minor repairs on my modern cars. Water pumps, drive belt tensioners, timing belt on my Fiat....no, I don't tear cars down to a bare shell and I've never rebuilt an engine, but I've done clutches in the past and had the head off my Marina Mk1 back in the 80s. So I like to think I'm not a complete idiot when it comes to dabbling with cars....but this HL auto has wound me up something rotten, and I didn't see it coming.

While I'm suspicious that certain things, like maybe the carbs, maybe the distributor, have been meddled with, I've been through so many processes of trying to set one thing up then move onto another, which haven't worked, that I've just given up. I cannot run the engine anyway, because the starter circuit died several weeks ago, and I haven't got the interest or stamina to look at it until we get some milder weather and lighter (and longer) days, because there is no room and no light in my garage, so I need to push the car outside into daylight. The starter wiring was discovered to be jury rigged a few days into ownership, and Kilroy advised me what to do about it, but I never put it into action because while I could start the car, other more pressing issues popped up one after the other. Now it would appear something else in the starter circuit has called it a day, either the solenoid, or the starter motor, or maybe its as simple as a bad earth, but currently I'm not in the mood to struggle in the cold and dark trying to find out. The car can sit there till the end of March, by which time I should have the carbs back, nicely rebuilt.

Incidentally I have been through the process twice, of finding TDC on cylinder number 1, checking the valve positions, checking the distributor position, making sure the centrifugal advance was working....it all checked out. That was all detailed in another post that has long since been abandoned. NOTHING I did to this car worked. I think this is why it ended up at auction. The auction house would only have driven it around the village where they were based, and that wouldn't have shown a lot. I was told the previous owner had to sell through ill health, and this may well be true, but I don't think he did an awful lot to the car himself, despite the scribbled notes in the workshop manual. Receipts for garage bills show garages changing the oil and filter, and also the coolant - jobs I'd easily do myself. And yes, the coolant change and 'repair water leak' constituted topping up that scaled radiator with Radweld! The guy's first bill on this car, after he'd paid someone to go through it, was about £1250. I think that must have come as a shock - it would me. The bills that came after - at another garage mostly - barely exceed £45 a time. The £1250 bill might have broke him - after that he might not have wanted to spend much. That's the impression I get, anyway.

Mick.

[mickthefitter]

I'm sure I have a spare brown steering column surround if you want a replacement instead of sticking it back together.

That's kind of you to offer - I was sure I'd never find another! I was going to try laying some fibre glass tissue mat on the inside to brace it. But if there's a shroud going spare that will do nicely if its the same shade.

How much would you like for it?

Mick.

[lock1506]

Hi Mick, I'll fish one out at the weekend, just £5 plus whatever the postage is. As far as I know they only did one shade of brown so should be the same. I wish you lived up here so I could have a crack at your car and get it sorted for you, its easier when its in front of you than trying to offer help on here.
Cheers Chris.

[mickthefitter]

Okay thanks for the shroud when you find it Chris. Saves me buying a glassing kit from Halfords! I know I'm responsible for my own motivation levels when it comes to working on cars, and some people reading my posts might well be frustrated with my slow progress and lack of commitment with what is basically a very sound car, rather than a wreck. Its just that despite the calculated risks when buying from an auction, I didn't reckon on the amount of hassle I've had with this one, and since I ALWAYS seem to make a misjudgement with engines on the classic cars I buy, rather than buying something with a heavily bodged body, I felt certain a 27,000 mile car would be relatively safe. But I got it wrong again. It makes me laugh when programmes like Car S.O.S. and Wheeler Dealers take some cars that have stood for years, or have been given little care in recent times, and rarely do they have to do much to the engines and transmissions when doing the car up. I am slowly building up my determination to see this Marina back on the road, and I hope when I've gone through whatever it takes to sort all its problems, I'll feel it was worth it and be able to enjoy taking to local shows, where it might well be the only Marina there, and have a bit of fun like I originally planned, watching people's reactions to a much derided car that I've always stuck up for, based on my experiences with my Mk1 auto in the 80s. Hopefully when its running right it'll go like stink too, being a twin carb, because my single carb Mk1 was pokey in its day, and even before things started going obviously wrong, I knew this HL was seriously lacking in performance. But in the middle of winter, now the engine has stopped turning over, I've got no intention of struggling in that garage of mine, until the weather improves.

[PHUQ]

If it's any consolation Mick, we spent about three weekends trying to get my single carb 1800 to run. Turned out someone had fitted the HT leads in reverse order- still have no idea what the original fault was, fitting new leads was part of the fault finding investigation (they were well past their best anyway so thought it worth doing the whole lot, should have just done one thing at a time of course). I'm sure most of us have been in similar situations with cars that just don't want to play, I've certainly abandoned one over winter (on the inlaw's drive no less...) because I've lost motivation to work on it.

Keep at it, you'll get there eventually- it's fundamentally a nice car, and a rare one too, it's worth persevering with.

[mickthefitter]

Thanks Matt. I do sometimes feel a little in isolation if I visit here with my tales of the thing flummaxing me, and my not wanting to spend winter evenings and weekends in severe discomfort letting it get the better of me even more I now plan to creep up on it slowly, so it doesn't notice, so I can try to catch it out...