Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

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mickthefitter
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Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Sun Oct 09, 2016 8:32 pm

I've been feeling a bit reluctant to put anything on this forum, after my experiences of a few weeks ago, where it seemed to me that much of what I posted started to be ripped into by a certain party, and I began to feel that my efforts were worthless. However, in the spirit of not throwing the baby out with the bath water, I'll bring anyone interested up to date with the recent happenings of my Mk2 1.8 HL automatic.

Last week I managed to get it started, after a struggle, and took it for a run around town. I'd not even opened the garage door and looked at it for at least a month. That's how hacked off with it, and everything Marina related, I was. It was a dog to start and as flat as a pancake on the road. I reckon it was producing about 30bhp, about the same as a Mini 850, but at least it still moved.

Earlier today I went out to it with the intention of getting it going, and moving the distributor and just driving it until it felt better, and never mind the strobe light. My neighbour, an ex-motor trade trained engineer, was cleaning his car, heard my struggle to get the Marina to fire, and came over to take a look. After several basic checks, (is there a spark, etc.) we finally got it to fire, with him in the driver's seat, the engine spluttering and fighting all the way, and managed to get it warmed up and running at idle. My neighbour knew straight away that something on this engine was way-out of wack, and I told him what I'd done to it and what I'd checked previously, by the book.

I said I'd wanted to try setting the timing to the factory settings with the vacuum pipe still on, to see what happened. He went back to his own car while I did that, and when I tried revving the engine, it wouldn't even pick up. So that didn't work. My neighbour came back, and took off the air filter. The distributor was moved again to give a better throttle response, and with me giving it a few revs, my neighbour noted the piston in one of the carbs (the back one) was rising slightly more slowly than the one at the front. He said this either indicated the carbs were out of balance, or there was some other fault. I told him I'd tried to use a Gunson Carbalancer, which is one of the cheapest, tackiest, most useless bits of tat I've spend good money on in a long time. I don't even think it's worth getting rid of it on eBay; it might as well go in the bin, for what good it is.

So, next, with the engine still resisting revs, my neighbour turned the distributor until the engine revved more freely at idle. Then he told me to clamp it up, and take the car around the block. Now it launched forward eagerly in first gear, but still seemed to be holding back a bit once the gears shifted into second. This is more how the car was when I got it, before I started doing things 'by the book'.

When I got back, my neighbour told me to put the timing light on it and see where the timing was, with the vacuum disconnected. 20 degrees before top dead centre, 10 degrees more advanced than it should be. I reckoned it was on 15 degrees BTDC before I started moving things around, and this time we just did it by how it sounded when it was running. So for some reason, my car, which still is clearly not right, currently cannot be set 'by the book'. However, at 20 degrees BTDC, it now doesn't seem to be fighting itself like it was when I tried to do things 'properly'.

My neighbour has suggested I take the car to a long established carburettor specialist in Nottingham for them to look at. I'm certainly not up for doing carb rebuilds and if I got the balancing wrong, which is likely, like I said, that Gunson Carbalancer I bought isn't worth the value of the cardboard box it is packed in. As for the timing, I've got no idea why it has to be so advanced. I've already established the crankshaft timing is correct, the crankshaft pulley hasn't moved, the valve clearances are correct, the correct distributor is fitted (kindly verified with help from Chris Weedon), and that the centrifugal advance and vacuum advance mechanisms are working, also verified by my neighbour today.

So it is now my intention to get in touch with the carburettor specialist in Nottingham and let them look at the car, and according to my neighbour, they've got full workshop facilities and should be able to detect any other faults with the ignition and general running of the engine. So I'll end up chucking money at it and let someone else fix it, which is what I'd already suggested I was prepared to do on my last thread. One thing is certain, I'm done messing with this part of the car from now on.

Mick.

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lock1506
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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by lock1506 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:19 pm

Chin up mate you'll get there in the end. Could may well be a blocked carb jet, they do wax up when they've been stood awhile with modern fuel. My own car did it at the begining of this year after being parked up over the winter. I still started every 6 weeks and it would start and run so I thought it was fine till I tried to drive it then it wouldn't pull the skin off custard. A quick clean of the float bowls and removed and blew through the jet tubes normal performance returned.

mickthefitter
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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:09 pm

Okay thanks for the support. Contradictory to my last statement above, I will be working on that part of my car again. I went to the recommended carb specialist yesterday, and he was there, but he retired last week! A young bunch have taken over the business with a big slant towards fuel injection and ECUs. The old guy is still there once a week, apparently, to deal with 'older stuff', but when I went to speak to him, he told me verbally what to look for and how to try some things I hadn't tried. Nice bloke, good chat, but he didn't seem keen on getting my car booked in on his one-day-a-week basis as he's already got a backlog of jobs to get through. He said to me, the pistons rising one slightly behind the other on my twin SUs is how they are supposed to work. Now, I've heard about this business he's just sold and retired from since the 1980s, and never had cause to go, and he might have been around for longer than that, so if he says one carb piston rises a fraction before the other when you rev the engine up, I'll go with that for now. I'll follow the steps he told me to go through when time allows, and if I've still got no joy, I'll have to try to find somebody else to look at it for me. Getting in and out of Nottingham these days is a nightmare anyway, since they put in the trams and have now taken up half the roads with cycleways, so I'm not entirely sorry I don't have to drive a slightly sick Marina there and leave it on an industrial estate!

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locost_bryan
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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by locost_bryan » Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:28 am

It's a shame about the knocker, but glad to hear you're back into it. :thumbup:
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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by MGBV8 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:30 am

Why don't you book it in with Pete Burgess in Alfreton.

He has literally written the book on B series tuning.
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mickthefitter
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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:37 pm

Haven't been here a while. I hadn't seen the advice about Pete Burgess in Alfreton. Maybe I need him.

Anyway, today, in my one-hour-per-week I get to do anything to my Marina, if I'm lucky, I tested the compressions, absolutely stone cold.

(Previous two weeks I'd tried doing the timing by ear, and setting the carbs by ear, as per verbal guidance from the guy who just retired from D&B Carburettors at the Cattle Market in Nottingham. Was still crap on the road, despite revving freely at idle. Still a pig to start cold).

Anyway, cold compressions. Three plugs were sooty when removed, so that's either from a huge amount of idling while playing, or still nowhere near right with my carbs. Or they're worn.

Anyway, cold compressions. Cyl. 1, 11.5 psi, Cyl. 2, 10 psi, Cyl. 3, 10.9 psi, Cyl. 4, 10.5 psi

Then I did 'em again. Cyl. 1, 10.7 psi, Cyl. 2, 9 psi, Cyl. 3, 10.4 psi, Cyl. 4, 10.5 psi.

Why on Earth some of them would drop under repeated cold cranking I've no idea. Don't look good though, do they?

I suppose the next thing to do is get it warm and do them again, then drop a bit of oil in the cylinders to make a temporary seal if they are still all over the place, to see if that helps determine whether bores/rings, or head gasket.

Since the thing was already running hot when I got it, with a clagged up radiator, I was hoping it needs nothing worse than a head gasket, but if someone properly cooked it in the past, who knows? There's no mixing of oil and water though. If the head gasket is the culprit, it can only be between cylinders.

Good body, nice interior, never welded, low mileage - but poxed engine again. Meaning every classic car I buy ends up like this once I've got my mitts on it, and not through anything I did.

By the way, it is minus MoT now. I started a new job on the day it was due and couldn't be bothered letting the MoT man struggle with it, with its poor running and still dodgy ignition wiring where you grapple for an under-dash button if the key won't turn it. That first-post-on-the-forum subject paled into insignificance long ago, once the car showed how hot and bothered it got and how low on power it was.

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by MarinaCoupe » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:20 pm

Hi Mick welcome back mate. The key thing about compression tests is that the readings are consistent across all the cylinders, as one extra low reading usually points to a piston ring broken or a valve not seating properly - often chipped, broken or the sealing surface worn. You are right in suggesting putting a drop of oil in, as this will seal the rings more tightly in the bore. If the pressures rise appreciable then the rings are worn, rather than the valves.

Also I think that you were reading the number of 'bars' and not psi. A 'bar' is a standard of normal air pressure at sea level, which equates to 14.5 psi, so 11.5 bar is equivalent to 167 psi. 11.5 psi is less than standard air pressure and means that there is a partial vacuum. I think that your readings are OK for a used A series or B series, although number 2 is a little low.

So your first series in psi are

1 = 167
2 = 145
3 = 158
4 = 152

On a modern car with modern tighter tolerances and less wear you would expect something like 200 or more psi.



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mickthefitter
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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:55 pm

Yeah you're right! The large white scale on my Gunson gauge is in Bar. The little one is in PSI around the outside of the dial. I'm just lazy with my reading.....I was taking the readings in a darkened powerless garage using an LED work light and just assumed I was looking at PSI!

I actually saw Fuzz Townsend using the exact same Gunson compression tester the other week on a removed Volvo P1800S engine. Seeing as I was bitterly disappointed in the quality of the Carbalancer I bought recently, I was surprised to see someone like him use a 'DIY' quality bit of kit.

Yes number 2 does look low. A bit of a worry. It doesn't necessarily follow that the head gasket has gone between cylinders if only one cylinder is particularly low. Removing the head wouldn't faze me too much. I did it to my Mk1 in the 1980s to repair a coolant leak from the head gasket. Piston removal though....that's a step further than I have facilities or enthusiasm for. If it looks like rings, the car will have to go somewhere. I will aim to get it warmed and do it again next weekend, then report back.

Cheers.

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by JoshWard » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:56 am

Once you have the head off you are halfway there to changing the rings. All you then have to do to remove them is take the sump off and unbolt them.
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mickthefitter
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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:05 am

Okay I'll think about that one during the coming week! ;)

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:06 pm

I just want to add that the beast who's headlight appears in my avatar photo has defeated me yet again. On Tuesday against tremendous external pressures and distractions, I managed to get into the garage with the intention of firing it up and turning it around, backed in, to allow more light when (and if) I got chance to do the compressions hot, another time, and then maybe had to take the head off. It had other ideas. First it tried to fire, but failed, on the battery I last put on (fully charged) a fortnight ago, but then started to turn over slowly like it had a flat battery, so then I put my newer (fully charged) heavier duty battery on and after one half-hearted rotation of the engine, it just went 'click' thereafter, and even the 'click' seemed to fade with repeated attempts.

I almost thought it had seized! No. I can turn the engine over easily by hand. Something else has gone wrong. My mate Dennis thinks a bad earth. He could be right. It could also be that darned inhibitor switch, under the car, inaccessible unless it's jacked up or on ramps. Ramps which it now can't be driven up on to. I have elderly members of my family with worrying health issues at the moment and to be honest, this car has pushed me a bit too far now. Since I bought it in April, at auction, it's done nothing but go downhill. I miss my oil burning Wolseley Hornet which was always on the button and the only failure it suffered was a worn dynamo that cost me £30 to have rewound. Okay the car cost me more than that in repairs over five years, but it was the only failure that threatened to stop it running, and it even ran on battery with no charge for the short time between the dynamo packing up and getting it rewound.

So this Marina is now officially cryogenically frozen. I'd joked among family and friends that it might end up being 're-discovered' covered in dust in 30 years time. Not so funny now. To think how I've defended the reputation of Marinas, based on my experiences with my 1975 Mk1, owned between 1981 and 1985, that this car was meant to replicate. I cannot see anything getting done to it now until the clocks go forward, other than keep turning the engine over with a socket on the crankshaft. Although the Hornet was fine for the whole winter sealed up in a Permabag. Knowing this Marina though, the bloody thing will seize on me just to spite me if I don't keep the parts moving.

I'll have a look myself when the lighter and longer days start coming. But if all else fails, it'll get pushed out and will leave on a trailer. Whether that'll be for me to pay to get sorted or be someone else's responsibility remains to be seen at the moment.

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by JubileeNut » Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:00 pm

The marina is no more complicated than your hornet, but sounds like you have a dog of a car and are not sure where to go with it.
Mine has been pretty easy to run and not had problems in fixing any issue although my battery is 9 years old so is weak in the cold when starting.
Also i have had every part in bits during restoration so most parts have been check for function so i have had 10k miles with no issues over 6 years.
I would check all your chassis earths from battery to engine and also your battery.
If your worried about the engine seizing then put some oil in the bores a leave. If was already turning over then it will not be siezed, that takes a bit longer to occur.
A good classic car will need normal maintanace and will be more reliable than a modern car as they are simple and easy to fix.
To be honest providing the body work is in good nick anything else can be sorted relatively easily by replacing the faulty part/s.
As most will say on here its not the marina at fault. Its just a poorly maintained car with problems that need to be sorted.
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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Sun Jan 01, 2017 6:57 pm

Last week when the engine ceased to turn on fully charged batteries, I also think one of the brake calipers has stuck in the 'open' position. The car still rolls but the brake pedal has gone rock hard. It's incredible. I was always aware that disc braked cars had calipers that could seize with little use, and thanked my lucky stars that for the last seven years I'd kept drum braked Minis that during winter storage would suffer no such issues - and I always leave the parking brake off and the car in gear. At one time I used to use storage oil in the Mini engines over winter, but found this to be an expensive and unnecessary indulgence once I sussed that my Mini engines weren't exactly pristine inside....reliable though. I had a carb issue with the 850 and bought a new HS2 SU and set it up okay, and ten years ago I converted a Cortina Mk5 to a manual choke Weber.

But with regard to the brakes now, while I kept the Cortina and a later Triumph 2500 on the roads over winter, they were only used roughly every three weeks on dry winter roads to keep things moving, and I never suffered ANY caliper issues through standing idle. Up to a week ago, the Marina had moved at roughly the same intervals, every two to three weeks, even if only up and down the street, but I thought it would keep the parts moving. But now it seems not. It's going to be a recommissioning job in the spring, on top of whatever ails the engine internally giving rise to the poor power output prior to it packing up!

I agree that with good bodywork and interior, any mechanical work the car needs is relatively easy in comparison to a welding-fest or search for missing parts. But since I bought it at auction - and I knew it was a risk but the history looked good - with low miles, I had hopes that it was going to be a 'drive it anywhere' car, and it simply is not. I didn't WANT a project, but I've got one. I'm still into it's relative rarity but boy, has it's systematic decline, through as I see it, no fault of my own, p----d me off. It is in relatively good storage conditions, albeit not centrally heated and de-humidified apart from a couple of those big things that take crystals, which actually seem to be working quite well going by the hygrometer on the car bonnet that is meant to go in the Permabag (that I now can't fit this larger car into). But dark short days, cold weather and ailing elderly family members just means I cannot be doing with it for now, when it has made its mind up not to play. I don't want to be beaten by it but for now its a draw. Retreat, regroup, new plan of attack. Hopefully come Spring. Possibly depending on external factors, maybe later than that. I'll have to see.

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Morris McKinnon
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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by Morris McKinnon » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:56 pm

I had the same problem with an old Vauxhall I had. Full battery but turned over as if it was dead. Just a few seconds of turning the key would kill a fully charged battery. Found out later the timing belt was out by one tooth! I know the Marina doesn't have a belt but maybe the chain could be suspect?

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Re: Mk2 1.8 HL Automatic update

Post by mickthefitter » Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:51 am

Obviously I cannot really tell EVERYTHING from external appearances of the engine but with a genuine 27,400 miles on the clock I wouldn't have thought the timing chain could stretch, and since I don't think the engine has ever been in bits I doubt it has been put back wrong. Wouldn't a mis-timed chain have an impact on the earlier checks I did in late summer, when I was looking at valve and piston positions in relation to the distributor? Then latterly I was trying to find out if there were any low compressions, after my most recent failed attempts to improve running following expert advice on carburettor and timing setting, and now the engine won't turn over, let alone start. I would've been prepared to take the head off in my garage over winter if I could have narrowed down the list of suspects as to why this car runs so badly, but now it won't go at all, and with my dad's health not good at the moment, and my sister and I spending a lot of time tending to him, the Marina has ceased to be a priority on any level.

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