1300 A Series Engine

[Mandator]

As pointed out in "what did you do to your Marina today" topic, the engine in my Marina is using oil, and it appears a lot!
Having tested the cylinder pressures they are reading from 95psi to 115psi. This seems low and I have been told they should be in the region of 150psi.
Can anyone confirm?
Squirted oil into each cylinder and there was a rise in two which also indicates possible worn valve guides.
What is the next step? Advice welcome.
As a temporary measure have applied "Stop Smoke" to the oil but realise a more professional solution is required.
If an engine overhaul/rebuild is required any advice on reliable companies welcome.

[david painter]

A good healthy A Series engine will make 175psi with throttle wide opening while cranking and a battery that hold 10 volts, so you get a decent cranking speed. Adding oil to increase compression is an indication of worn bores / piston rings this can be confirmed by carrying out a cylinder leakage test I aim to look to a maximum of 35% leakage a good engine will be in region of 10% Air escaping into crankcase can be heard by removing oil filler cap past inlet valve in carburettor intake past exhaust valve at tail pipe and cylinder to cylinder head gasket in adjoining plug hole. Head gasket to colling system by bubbling in radiator
Dave

[JoshWard]

The bores in an A series tend to be very long-lived, often a new set of rings is all that is needed. It's a fairly straightforward job- head off, sump off and pistons out. Scholar Engines on the A140 or Seager Engineering in Debenham will be the people to take it to if you don't fancy tackling it yourself.

[The Breaker]

I would just go for another cylinder head, weather its your referbed by a specilist or you get a second hand replacement

[Mandator]

At the moment will probably just live with an Ol' Smokey and keep topping up.
Come the New Year, aka when I have some money, will prob. go for a rebuild - will at the same time have head converted to unleaded!

[Mandator]

Taking a bit of advise it looks like an overhaul is required.
Talked to my local motor spares factor and they have an agreement with a mechanic that overhauls engines. Probably get the work done in the new year.
Also asked about hardened valve seats and he can farm that work out, but is it worth the extra cost? At the moment just adding lead substitute - any suggestions?

[JoshWard]

Lead additive is just pouring money away. There's at least one A series Marina with north of 200k miles on the clock which has never seen additive and no sign of valve seat recession. If you're worried it's probably cheaper in the long run to have hardened seats fitted than to keep buying additive.

[david painter]

The Cast Iron valve seat will become aged hardened with lead memory from years of using leaded petrol. Some reports suggest this memory will last 40 000 miles, however if the valves are removed and the seats reground this lead memory is lost. I personally ran a 1.0 Metro in the late 90's on Unleaded fuel for over 20 000 miles with the occasional tank of 4 star fuel without any valve problems. My 1300 coupe took me around France in 2018 a lot of it on Motorways and is still running now on the original valve seats. In my opinion while everything is working leave well alone, if however, in your case where it sounds like you need a rebore and pistons having the head machined and hardened valve seats fitted would be a relatively small cost of a proper engine rebuild. If you go down the route of a cheap rings only job i would leave well alone.
Dave

[Mandator]

Advice on some other fora/forums is that lead substitute also improves running by reducing pinking, (Raising the octane levels?) and thereby reduces engine wear. Are they talking ballcocks

[david painter]

Pinking or detonation as it is sometimes known by is a rattle from engine on acceleration. This usually occurs in the 2000RPM region, its primary cause is over advanced ignition timing. Whilst the pinking is not directly related to Unleaded fuel it is related to the Octane level of the fuel. the old 4 star petrol was 97-98 octane whereas the Modern Standard Unleaded is 95 Octane and Super Unleaded is 98 Octane. The amount of ignition advance that can be run depends a lot on the Octane rating of the fuel within reason you want to run as much ignition advance as possible without pinking as this produces the best power ( modern cars have knock sensors to retard the ignition so the engine can always be run to the point of pinking when under full load to produce the best power) on old engines designed to run on star fuel generally the ignition timing has to be retarded 2-3 degrees to stop pinking there by reducing the power output slightly. Long term pinking can cause engine damage melted pistons etc this would rarely happen on a normally driven road engine usually the annoying rattle most people ease off the throttle when it occurs. Lead substitute will improve running if it includes an Octane Booster Lead was originally added to petrol to increase Octane and reduce valve wear, it was first used in aero engines is WW2 and started to filter into road fuel after the war as we went from side valve to OHV engines and power outputs increased.
Dave

[JoshWard]

It's also worth saying not all lead substitute uses an octane booster. For example, I am sure Castrol do two versions of 'Valvemaster', one with and one without. As David says, timing needs to be adjusted according to the fuel you use and because modern fuels are different invariably the factory timing settings can now be meaningless. You could use an additive with octane booster, or you could just use super unleaded fuel which as David says is higher octane. It would be interesting to work out which one costs less.

[Mandator]

It's also worth saying not all lead substitute uses an octane booster. For example, I am sure Castrol do two versions of 'Valvemaster', one with and one without. As David says, timing needs to be adjusted according to the fuel you use and because modern fuels are different invariably the factory timing settings can now be meaningless. You could use an additive with octane booster, or you could just use super unleaded fuel which as David says is higher octane. It would be interesting to work out which one costs less.

At the moment am using "Super Unleaded" and Lead substitute, primarily to reduce valve wear but will probably go for a more permanent solution when the engine is examined. Ultimately will all depend on how much it is going to cost to have the engine refurbished/repaired. Am on a bit of a limited budget!!!

[Mandator]

Last week decided to get the problem of my oil and water loss sorted. A local mechanic did a pressure test and identified low compression in bores, due to leakage at Exhaust Valves. Rings slightly down but not unduly. Head has been removed and as suspected Head Gasket has broken down and Exhaust Valves and Seats worn.
the mechanic has sent the Head away to be skimmed and re-ported, hardened Seat Inserts fitted if necessary although advice is that Hardened Seats are unnecessary unless car is to be pushed!
Now for the "weird" bit! Looking down the Bores it appears one, or possibly three, Pistons have been inserted the wrong way round. on Bore 3 the Piston identification Vee is pointing towards the nearside of the engine and on Bores 1,2 & 4 towards the offside!
The question being, is it the piston(s) wrongly fitted to the Con Rod or the whole Piston/Con Rod assembly inserted wrongly. Sump off to check it would seem.

Now obviously this situation should be rectified but given that the car is not going to be pushed will removing the assembly and rotating actually open up a bigger can of worms? New Shell Bearings, wear profile problems on Crankshaft, wear profile problems on Bores, oil spray issues.....? Where does one stop?

Another question raised, is that when purchased, by me, the car was recorded as having done 41300 miles but the engine appears to have been changed prior to 1992, on its second keeper, as the build sheet lists engine number 519088 but my V5 lists engine as 519089 - that is one hell of a coincidence to replace one engine with the next in sequence? Is there a chance that the EN has been typed in wrong on a replacement V5? If the engine has been replaced has it been poorly rebuilt, or an outside possibility a Friday afternoon/Monday morning engine - unlikely but hey we are talking about one of Leyland's finest!!!!!
Why would a replacement engine be needed after only 12 years of age - cracked block??????
Will have to get over to the Garage to check the EN.

Oh the joys of classic car ownership!!!!!

[MarinaCoupe]

The differences in the two numbers is too close to be a coincidence IMHO, I would say that somewhere along the line, the number has been mis-transcribed. The correct number should be on a plate riveted to the block on the right hand side (distributor & oil filter side). If the plate is missing that would suggest that the top surface of the cylinder block has been skimmed at some point. The modern V5C data would have been transcribed from original hand written “log-book” records held in local licensing offices, so human error plays a part here.

As far as the piston arrows are concerned, the arrows should all point the same way. The arrow should indicate the thrust side of the piston I.e. as the piston is pushed down by the expanding gases, so on your engine the exhaust side of the block. If you check the underside of the piston, the casting is more substantial on the arrow side to take the compression forces.

[Mandator]

Thanks Josh for the info.
I am guessing that the block is original but won't know until I check numbers.
Main worry is that the Piston(s) is wrongly fitted on the Con Rod so will need to extract the Gudgeon Pin. How easy and are the Extraction Tools easily available?
Best scenario is that the whole Piston/Con Rod assembly is in wrong. Will certainly simplify matters! Thinking about it, from the quick glance I had at the garage, I have a sneaky suspicion that Three Pistons are wrong.
Sigh!!!!!!!!!!!
More expense